"Utah leaderships' anti-public lands stance may cost state $50 million annually". http://www.hatchmag.com/...r-hints-move/7714319
That's absolutely ridiculous. "The only disrespect I have on here is for your demeanor, attitude, and brash insistence that your point of view, and only your point of view, is valid". My demeanor was professional up until my last post. As you later would go on to say "there are other, valid viewpoints that exist out there, even if you disagree with the premise of them". You weren't disrespectful towards me and democrats/liberals because of our demeanor. You were disrespectful since the beginning and not just the last post like me because you are a complete hypocrite of what you just said above. I am open to other people's viewpoints and listen to them. It doesn't mean I'm going to believe them or agree with them but I give everyone a chance to speak. I spoke first and you nor anybody had to say anything let alone say things in a manner that lead to a debate. "They, unlike you, are willing and able to accept that my facts are valid but disagree they are right for society as a whole." After I spoke, you chimed in and whether intentional or not, you mislead some people. This absolute biggest lie is your tried putting words in my mouth...I never said the sky was falling. You had what you would call a temper tantrum and put words in my mouth. Secondly, you tried citing the number of retailers as the number of sponsors in an effort to make the significance of 5 retailers dropping out less. Third, you tried to bring 2016 outdoor shows into the equation when A) there was more sponsors that year because they are different year to year and B) Outdoor retailers weren't talking about not coming to the Utah show in 2016. Fourth, you tried to underestimate the number of retailers that would be lost by those 5 groups dropped out; when we used the numbers YOU provided, the average number of retailers per sponsor turned out to be close to 100. when you multiply that 100*5, that = 500...a lot more than your original claim of 50. Fifth, you literally were saying you didn't believe stuff that me and sinergy were telling you that literally came from a land transfer analysis report....you're being like the type of person that would say you don't believe smoking cigarettes causes cancer or something J/A like some people can smoke and not get cancer. You were the one not accepting facts, not me. I probably wouldn't agree with your or some other people's philosophy for what you "disagree is right for society as a whole". In this case, I wouldn't have agreed with your perspective which i'm assuming is something along the lines of that these outdoor retailers threw a hissy fit and shouldn't have announced they were going to withdraw from the show. So, I actually agree with your quote of "facts are valid but disagree they are right for society as a whole". I have more of a problem with you trying to argue against the facts in the 5 main points I addressed above than your presumed interpretation of the way the five outdoor retailer groups handled the situation. I don't feel like you did the first half of your quote of "being willing and able to accept that my facts are valid but disagree they are right for society as a whole". About the Obama situation....this years election compared to 08 and 12 is an apples to oranges comparison. It's not justifying their actions by any means, but protester's aren't mad that a republican won...they are mad because Donald Trump won. It wasn't like it is today back when George Bush won before Obama took office either. Anyways, here is a video of people burning a flag as a Obama/Clinton protest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh5tsfJnYj4 Trust me...you can find more while Clinton was running or before Obama started both of his terms if you look hard enough. Anyway, like I said before the actions of some of these protests are inexcusable and I'm not justifying their actions but the people aren't mad a republican won...they're mad Donald Trump won; this is an apples to oranges situation with Obama. To be honest this thread was meant to be more like a current event and not meant to turn into a debate. I'll probably comment if I see a fishing post/story that I like of your's Dubob. But I'm not going to be spending this much time on the internet arguing anymore.
Unlike Dubob, I don't really feel that way about the older population. I can just see that this argument wasn't going anywhere and I'm tired of being disrespected and I'm tired of him disrespecting over 50% of the population. That's the only reason I finally caved in and decided to say mean things about him. I think everyone can tell his overall disrespect for not only me, but for liberals and democrats in general. News flash...more people voted for another candidate and that's not even counting people who voted for third party candidates on either side. All dubob and some people in society are trying to do is create total division. It's beyond obvious by the way he addresses one side what his agenda is.
I think all of us old people can take solace in this attached meme of wisdom.
DuBob dont take it personal its the Internet, everyone talks crap on the internet. This is the reason I dont post in this forum or any internet forum that much any more. Plus Id rather spend time outdoors than sitting in front of my computer. Regardless of our difference in opinion about land, water or what else we as a human race will always have a difference of opinion thats what make us human. The ability to have consciousness and to form thought But that doesn't mean we need to be at a constant conflict live and let live and do what makes you happy are my mottos in life. Tight Lines to you.
Dont indulge Dubob its a scientific fact that Brain shrinks as you get older this is well documented fact by the Harvard journal of medicine, And the Oxford University Press the grey matter in Hippocampus decreases 13% and the White matter in the Frontal Lobe shrinks 24%. Hippocampus is Memory learning and emotion the Frontal Lobe emotional expression, problem solving, memory, language, judgment, By Age 74 areas like memory problem solving judgement and learning have a drastic decrease and Cognitive and motor stills rapidly decline So arguing with a 74 year old is pointless Im surprised he even remembers what he posted.
And then there's this from an ADULT libtard:
Haha old man I don't know if I believe you or if I even care. Your supposed degree is about engineering and mine is directly related to the topic of public lands. And guess what? I'm not done with school. I'll have my masters or phD in a few years. You were defeated with every lie or misrepresentation that you tried fooling this forum with. I would love to meet you in real life. You haven't had a good response to any of what I've previously said or my most recent post. Haha how does it feel that your days are coming to to an end? How does it feel that that when your time comes you won't be swimming with the fish in the sky? You'll be in a lake filled with oil? How does it feel that I'm in my prime and that I'm the future? You've been paying attention to what I've been posting so obviously you feel threatened. Unlike you, I know how to spell bore and I'll correctly use it in a sentence. You bore me and I'm done with you. I love how worried about the future you must be since you won't be around and since I'm apparently such a terrible person LOL! Go to bed old man.
Typical narrow minded response, "he's lying, "he cheating" wah wah wah LOL The quotes are directly posted from the states analysis so believe in what you want the information is there and published to the public The analysis was paid by Utah ( the same people whom you are supporting) and done by the U of U, Weber State, Utah State and more. The only reason I dont post the link is I enjoy reading your crazy posts and laughing at you and bovine making these crazy assumptions and raging at your pc's.
BovineOwner, I don't want to push your buttons but when you have time, I would like your opinion on this brief excerpt that pertains to your profession of ranching.
I guess I didn't think when I graduated in the top 10% of my class and was a member of the National Honors Society for Leadership and Success. Dubob I would like know your education history. Any claim you make above high school, I would need to see your transcripts just like I would love to see Donald Trump's tax returns. I'm with sinergy. All your points are either lies, insignificant, or have literally nothing to do with the topic we're talking about. First, you tried lying saying there was 22,000 or how ever many sponsors and then I exposed that bs. Now your trying to talk about 2016 shows when things were different then. Earth to Dubob, sponsors change every year...I'm not even gonna bother verifying anything u said is true this time but even assuming so, it's not the same every year and people weren't talking about dropping out of the show in 2016. Your full of B.S. If we go with your number of 6,330 retailers and divide it by your number of 64 sponsors then that means there is an average of almost 99 retailers per sponsor. Therefore your assertion that only 50 less retailers will be there is BS. 99*5(how many have dropped out so far)=495. 495 is a far more accurate estimate for how many less retailers there will be. And BEYOND WHICH, this ISN'T 2016. THERE WILL NOT BE 64 SPONSORS. THERE WILL BE 15 FOR EACH SHOW. Bottom line...Utah will be surviving...not thriving. By the way, your silly assertions about these ice fishing spots are stupid and have nothing to do with federal or state management. You travel on STATE roads to get to federal or state managed recreation sites. First of all, the road to East Canyon is not plowed for the way I take to get to it in the Summer. Secondly, almost every state park you take highways like U.S 40 OR I-80. They're plowed because those are major highways...it has nothing to do with federal vs. state management. If you want to play that silly game then I'll say that the state is doing a horrible job managing their waters compared to the feds. Quagga mussels and any other aquatic invasive species(burbot, northern pike, bass, lake trout, carp, etc.) related problems are far more severe in state managed watershed areas than federally managed watershed areas. I hope you and other people reading this understand how stupid both what you said about the road plowing, and what I said about aquatic invasive species is. These are problems that literally have nothing to do with state and federal management. Yours are major highways and mine is because of stupid and irresponsible recreationist behavior. By the way, please describe and explain what I'm looking at?
Interesting analogy, but you do realize the state did a year long analysis, involving multiple agencies and using a million dollars to survey exactly this question. its published and readily available Maybe you should read it and get some insight how the state reflects on your answer. I find all this very comical one needs ask without even knowing how the state is going to represent the land to the public do your arguments even have a foot to stand on. LOL Oh and here a fun fact for you BLM, Forest Service and FWS support almost 5,000 Utah jobs. With the PLI those jobs will be on hook. With the immediate withdrawal of funds from the Feds the question remains will all 5000 jobs be available. Geez I hope those people get to fish those plowed roads before there jobs get slashed.
Yawn, your entire post is a whine and cry not a single rebuttal on how Utah is going to pay for the annual 300 million dollar shortfall, just some gibberish emotional rant. I actually started to write out a few paragraphs addressing everyone of your rants then thought why ? whats the point ? If your someone who flies off the handle at a post on the internet then you neither rational nor intelligent. Think about it every argument that's made is implausible nor is there evidence of the fact. Just typing on keyboard. But your demeanor of getting in a rage is very apparent and person who rages over an internet posting one needs ask themselves am I a sane person. Id offer the advice to stay off the internet. I can only imaging what would happen if a person in real life where to approached you. What I find comedic is one post and you lost all composure making yourself look like a complete ass. Maybe next time take a deep breath use some intellect and type an intelligent rebuttal. But now that I address your temper tantrum back to the subject at hand So Again I ask how do you think the state is going to make up for a ANNUAL 300 million dollar shortfall without Mining\Fracking, Selling, or developing it. ??? Oh and heres a fun fact for you Bovine "oil and gas royalties would never be sufficient to cover the stateís costs.However, the state would have access to other revenue streams such as coal royalties oil, gas and coal rents and bonus payments and other land-based revenues" : Direct for the PLI And what do you think are those "Other Land based Revenues".. Hmmm grazing fee's ...
I don't think so .
Sinergy I have done my best to be cordial and explain my side of this issue in very clear and precise terms. But I am done with that after reading the complete drivel you wrote to me! You are completely wrong and you have no idea what the hell you are talking about! You are probably some over-educated moron who has never done anything with your life but draw welfare. For you to imply that my family "squatted" on our land is ludicrous and you must be nuts! We have a legal deed to every acre we own and we OWN our grazing right. You wouldn't know whats its like to work for a living and to treasure the land and it's plant life! I have done more research on property rights and grazing than you will ever even attempt to do. I am done with you! You are clearly just another whiny piece of garbage who hates ranchers. You have zero credibility to me and I hope you realize how offensive and completely dishonest your asinine comments are. YOU ARE A LIAR IN MY HUMBLE OPINION!! IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH! Ban me if you'd like moderators. But I will not stand back and be attacked by a dimwitted jackass who has no idea what he/she/it is talking about! This post is meant squarely for Sinergy and is not intended for or aimed at fishinglunatic, Fatbiker or others who disagree with me in a civil way. For that POS to imply that our ranch was founded by "squatting" is totally unfounded and unethical. Sinergy is not worth anymore of my time and I kindly withdraw from this thread to spend time doing what I love instead of wallowing around with a pig! I wish the rest of you well. Sinergy can go to hell!
Bravo to FishingLunatic...
Dubob, once again that 29,000 number you're citing includes customers and number of employees, NOT companies. And I don't know what link you're saying isn't relevant but if those retailers dropping out wasn't a big deal then your hero Mike Lee wouldn't be trying to convince them to not withdraw. https://www.ksl.com/...43137206&nid=148 And no this isn't a republican or liberal issue. People can be an overall republican but fight for at minimum disagree with with what our state officials are trying to do with public lands. The same could be said about overall democrats or liberals...they don't necessarily agree with everything that their democrat officials, senators, etc. believe or are trying to do. Personally I am disappointed and think that a lot of people like you are just looking and going "HEY THIS IS MIKE LEE, ORRIN HATCH, and ROB BISHOP who are republicans...because I'm overall republican I'm going to take their word or just support there stance on this topic since they're republican". Look, it just so happens that most democrat senators/officials/etc. don't want what Lee, Hatch, and Bishop are trying to do to happen. Whether you are a democrat or republican, worst comes to worst you should be saying screw them(our state officials, senators, etc.) and their personal beliefs...what I want to happen regarding public lands should have to do with what benefits me and the majority of people , not what any particular political party's senators and officials want.
Thank you for admitting you sent me to the wrong source. That being said, in your KSL link for the summer it says this: "An estimated 29,000 people are coming to Salt Lake City this week for the event, including outdoor industry manufacturers, retailers and suppliers responsible for more than $25 million in spending, according to data compiled by Visit Salt Lake". Some of that is the retailers but most of that it is consumers from other states. If it was only manufacturers, retailers, or suppliers it wouldn't have said including. Also included in that number is individual people who work for retail companies ...each company sends more than one person to represent their company. We're not talking about number of retail, manufacturing, or supplying employees...we are talking about number of companies(not how many are within the company). This is from outdoor retailers website them self showing sponsors for their planned winter show, it shows 15 sponsors. http://outdoorretailer.com/...r-market/index.shtml Also from their website specifically, This is the sponsors who will be there for their summer show. Coincidentally they also have 15 sponsors for the summer as well. http://outdoorretailer.com/...r-market/index.shtml As for your KSL link in the winter, that 22,000 number is the number of workers; not companies (each company has a lot more than one sponsor). It's also important to understand that both of these shows described in both articles already happened. They don't have anything to do with future outdoor retailer shows which is what this topic was about. I agree with you based on their word that they're going to honor their 2018 contract and there will be a show. But their own website indicates there will be more like 15 sponsors(I have no idea how many people each sponsor will send to represent their company). The sales generated will be reduced through 2018 but they will likely be entirely eliminated after 2019 when the show will likely no longer be hosted in Utah.
Sorry to tell you Bovineowner but your grazing fee's will increase if Utah gains control to these Federal Lands. The Federal government currently spends between $200 and $300 million PER YEAR managing public lands in Utah, including fighting WILD FIRES. So in your mind how do you think Utah is going to make up for the ANNUAL 200 to 300 million dollar shortfall. Bottom line Utah will need to come up with 300 million dollars so you tell me how the state is going to make up for the shortages without selling, developing and increasing fee's on these lands. Your posts are entitled you have no claim to these lands no matter what year your family squatted on them. Utah and its government doesn't care what date your family arrived nor will it abide by any local constitution many land owners already have seen Utah take there land from them. Do the research take for example landowners who owned land around Jordenelle who had their land taken from them and many more ranchers like your self who lost land to the local government.
I'm sorry Bovine Owner but no I don't think that public land management should be catered to a few thousand people compared to the actual state population of over 3 million. Beyond that 3 million living in the state, I believe public lands are for EVERYONE. I think management should reflect what's best for the majority of people and not a small group. When I'm in the position to, I want to visit other states national parks, monuments, and other public lands and I want other states to be able to see ours. That is not possible with what our state officials are trying to do. I still cringe today when I try to fly fish a river and have to wonder whether I'm on private property or not. Or even how I am restricted to what areas I'm allowed to fish on. My father wishes that we could fish places he used to. And by the way I know how expensive that land and even homes in that area are so don't try claiming to me that they are in a poor financial situation. I still genuinely don't understand what some of you want allowed on public lands that isn't currently allowed. I don't know if some of you are trying to hide something specific that you want allowed because you're afraid of disapproval so you won't say it but the majority of what I've heard about complaints is allowed on federally managed public lands. As far as my future career goes, I'm going to do what I think is best. Maybe it really is impossible to make everyone happy. And I'm sorry but I don't think I'm naive. Number one, Those lands will get combinations of sold, privatized, and destroyed if our state officials get their way. Number two, People don't appreciate the work of our state more than the federal government, number three, it is impossible for the the states to manage all of our public lands.
Bob, precisely my point. The cleaning station still isn't fixed after a bunch of folks led by you (thank you) brought it to their attention. They made promises, but never followed through and solved the problem. Why would anybody believe they will manage the federal lands appropriately when they can't even fix a fish cleaning station at one of their most popular state parks? As far as Town Hall meetings, in the past you were right. At this one, young Jason seemed astounded at the reception he received, especially when we started chanting, "Do you job." The little fella has to stand for reelection in two years. Might not be as easy as past elections. I'll give credit where credit is due. The left learned a lesson from the Tea Party activists in 2008 and 2009. Hopefully, we can keep some momentum going and make some well needed change on both sides of the aisle. Larry
Fishinglunatic I guess the thousands of ranching families in our state should have no say in how public lands are managed? To you, "having the best possible public lands" means my vote doesn't count? So a high end company that makes $400 vests using the down of unborn geese gets it's dander up over the Governor and our legislator standing up for the rights of multi-generational family ranches and that is fine with you? I am incredulous at your naÔve attitude amigo. You are a millennial who has everything figured out and nobody can tell you otherwise. While I will continue to applaud your passion and enthusiasm, I am truly disappointed at your lack of understanding of rural issues and the negative effects bad land management policy have on the citizens of this state. And, sadly, your career will directly effect those same folks you sure seem to have very little regard for. I encourage you to open your mind to those of us who have been around the block many times. You just might learn something.
Show me where you're getting this 29,000 outdoor manufactures number. I looked on their press with the date you said and all they said they would honor their contract till 2018. They're the group but park of their group isn't attending. It doesn't say anything about your 29,000 number. I'm to lazy to count it right now but in fact, I can already look and see that this is less than 100 sponsors. http://outdoorretailer.com/...ouncement-3400.shtml http://www.outdoorretailer.com/...-info/sponsors.shtml
2 more to the mix. Dubob, the show will go on no matter how many drop out because outdoor retailers is honoring their 2018 contract. The show's will go on but the money that gets generated for the state will be drastically reduced because of decreased sponsors. A more important point is that even outdoor retailers like REI who have stated that they are still going to the show know that what are state officials are trying to do is bad. The other more important issues goes beyond 2018. This isn't a liberal vs. republican issue. This is a matter of having the best possible public lands. https://www.ksl.com/?sid=43148443CEO And No Dubob the sky is not falling down but state money will be less than normal as a result of this. That is why Governor Herbert is trying desperately to get them to not withdraw. https://www.ksl.com/?sid=43137206&nid=148
Okay, itís time to stop the bovine excrement of the highest odor. Lunatic would have us believe that because Patagonia, Black Diamond, and now Arc'teryx donít like the political environment here in Utah that the Outdoor Retailers are pulling out of Utah and will cost the state $50 million annually. The Outdoor Retailers issued a press release that, among other things, said it brings 29,000 outdoor manufacturers, retailers, and suppliers to the Salt Palace Convention Center each year. So, Iím supposed to get all upset and worried about 3 no-shows? Yeah; right. The other side of the coin is this Ė the show is locked into SLC until at least the Summer Show of 2018. Here is a quote from the Outdoor Retailers news release of Feb 6, 2017:
That's the second one they lost this week. Maybe more to follow soon....I'll have to look at the figures they bring to the state but now I bet we've lost over $100million annually. http://www.tetongravity.com/...of-outdoor-retailer1
Bob, did your efforts get it fixed? I was one of the folks who emailed and made calls (at your suggestion). I even stopped at their Hq in SLC several times. While the cover was removed, it still wasn't fixed. This is an excellent example of state mismanagement. Personally, I don't think they are capable or willing to manage Utah federal land. Larry By the way, myself and a thousand other Patriots in attendance and waiting outside enjoyed the non-answers little Jason Chavez gave at his town hall meeting the other night. Power to the people!!!!
Fools usually think they are Very Smart....You Sir, are Very Smart.....Guluk...and goodbye....don't waste my time or yours anymore....
Larry, You will be welcome at my home anytime you need a floor or couch to crash on! I will send ya a PM with my cell number. Looking forward to putting a face with the name. I better get my XR running and we can spend a few days wandering around the desert :) Darrell
Darrell, I might take you up on your invitation this spring. I haven't rode my bike around the Great Salt Lake in a few years. Been thinking this spring would be a good time. Two years ago I went in early November so I'm looking at the end of April or first part of May this time. Does the body good to get out of the city, breathe fresh air and be by myself for a few days. If I go, I'll be coming back on the Pony Express trail. Should put me right in your neck of the woods. Shucks, maybe you'd let me spend a night in your barn. Another month or so, I should have dates and details figured out. Larry
You have once again missed the point entirely. Patagonia makes money off of Utah just like other businesses...so what? I'm not talking about the money that they make. They bring over $50 million to the state of Utah annually...that isn't what they're making, that's what they're bringing to the state. No there isn't a replacement for outdoor retailers, in fact other outdoor retailers are talking about leaving us as well. The fact that you're arguing that a loss of $50 million to the state isn't bad is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Even Herbert realizes that this is bad for the state. Of course he's lying about how much he and our state officials care about our lands but the point is he's desperately trying to get Patagonia to come back and to stop other outdoor retailers from leaving. http://www.ksl.com/?sid=43137206&nid=148 "By the way, I'll talk about life or other topics in general if I'd like....Read your own last sentence of every entry again and chew on your own words for awhile.....You are the kind of person who enjoys getting in the last jab or statement, so go ahead - but I'll be out fishing...Guluk..." Number one, what are you talking about chew on my own words for a while? Of course I like getting the last statement in. Anyone who tells you they don't is a liar. I especially don't let anyone get the last statement in when it's either a complete lie or has ridiculous fallacy and reasoning. You were obviously to lazy to write me that list I asked for. I'll be out there fishing as well and serving you and other recreationists in the future.
The Outdoor Retailers Mart is a business, just like Ringling Bros. or Cirque Circus coming to Utah...different presentations, different product, but still a business....and if cry babies like Patagonia leave for whatever reason, get kicked out, or fail as a business, someone else will fill their spot..... Supply and Demand Got a good product? The market will find you Simple and good business knowledge.... Patagonia is not essential - they can be replaced. Someone else wants to join them? So be it. If they all go? Then like I said before, it was just another business, and business's come and go..They used Utah long enough, and got their $ worth....Patagonia made this a political issue..These are Your Friends, "People like You"...to quote your words..Not me.. By the way, I'll talk about life or other topics in general if I'd like....Read your own last sentence of every entry again and chew on your own words for awhile.....You are the kind of person who enjoys getting in the last jab or statement, so go ahead - but I'll be out fishing...Guluk...
Bovineowner, there's a fish cleaning station at Willard Bay's south marina that has been broken for at least 18 months. Willard Bay is one else of the state's most popular state parks. Despite the efforts of many people on this site we have not been able to get any action on this issue. Utah collects $10 from everyone who drives through the gate yet won't put any money into maintaining the facilities. I've personally made three trips to SLC on this issue and the only answer I can get is, "the parts on order." This is just one small example of state mismanagement. Range management might be a different issue, but as a fisherman, I'm opposed to the state taking control of federal lands, any federal lands. I've got a daughter who lives in NYC. BLM and forest service land belongs as much to her as you and I. If federal land managers aren't responsive to your needs we have elected officials to hold them responsible. If the elected officials aren't doing their job, fire them. Rob Bishop is my Congressman. I've made hundreds of calls, sent letters and emails to his office on matters that concern me. Not once, have I received an acknowledgment from his office. Yes, every two years I do my best to fire him. Larry
For a fella who doesn't want to argue, you sure like too :) I have dealt with federal and state land management for 35plus years. As a sportsman, and a rancher, I have dealt with both bureaucracies. While the state of Utah is not perfect, at least the management is LOCAL and not in the control of an agency 2000 miles away and dictated largely on a political agenda and not the health or benefit of the land managed. In my experience, Utah state lands are managed better. I recently spent 11 days hunting and camping on 16 sections of connected state land. 16 square miles of healthy range land where cattle graze and wildlife thrive. Where wood cutting is encouraged instead of banned so that lightning can scorch the earth. Where if a person has a question or a suggestion he/she can contact Richfield Utah instead of the Dept of Interior. Lets visit this spring. Lets look at the range land, the wildlife, the mustangs, the sage grouse, the off- roading, the cattle, and a myriad of other issues. Lets learn from each others experiences and perspectives. I will wager we find much, much more common ground than we may think. I will kindly retire from our healthy debate now, as I have more calves and lambs coming and cows to feed. Enjoy your day
Lol if you use your "businesses come and go" attitude about it then why can't I just say well lets let these oil, gas, mining, logging, and other extracting industries go and and be replaced by renewable job sources such as solar? By the way, solar provides more employment throughout the United States than oil, gas, coil and mining combined despite some people like Trump, Chaffetz, and Bishop being stuck in the past. In all serious, I hope you see how silly of an argument that is in the first place and also realize that unlike Shopko's and Kmart's, this wasn't a business residing in Utah. Outdoor retailers like Patagonia travel to certain cities to host shows. So no, this isn't a business like Shopko and Kmart that was residing in Utah and could be replaced. We've lost them and their are no replacements...in fact, we're likely going to lose other outdoor retailers and have no replacements and lose even more state money. "let someone else deal with their cry-baby liberal demands...." I hope you realize that people like you make things like public lands political. Caring about public lands shouldn't be related to whether someone is a liberal or republican. Looking past that, don't talk about life or other topics in general...I would like a itemized or numbered list of "cry-baby liberal demands" specifically regarding public lands.
I look forward to spring time as well Bovine. In the meanwhile, I would like your HONEST opinion about some things. 1. It's clear you don't think federal management is perfect but do you really think the states actually do a better job managing public lands? If so, what do you like about their management(don't tell me what you don't like about federal management...tell me about a specific state park or two in Utah or some other Utah public land and what you like about how they manage it). 2. If you really think state management of public lands is currently better than federal management, do you think that the state could maintain their "higher standard or quality" of management if they theoretically inherited all of the federal public lands? From my personal perspective I'll tell you this related to both questions. I have yet to land a federal job(I don't really care who I work for, it's more about what the job is). That being said, I won't go into details here but I have worked state jobs. I will tell you from an insider perspective that with all the "complaining", they hear, you sure wouldn't think that our state is doing a better job managing lands. It's actually kind of sad how depressed and burned out a lot of state employees are because of public dissatisfaction. A lot of management issues people have with federal public lands have to do with stupid things people do. For instance I've heard you mention fires on federal lands before...most fires occurring on public lands whether they are state or federally managed are human caused. It's not a case of poor state or federal management...it's a case of someone being an idiot and doing something like throwing a lit cigarette onto dry grass on a hot summer day. The majority of management issues people have with federal lands also has to do with money. My insider perspective has let me learn that the states have less money to work with. There's a reason why a few years ago fishing license prices went up. There's a reason why this year our state has actually used up its budget for snow plowing and removal. Both state and federal government run primarily on taxes; a lot of people don't like high taxes. So our low tax rates aren't helping either state or federal management at all but the feds are much stronger financially than the states. Federal management has financial issues, but their funding is strong enough where they can at least manage their land even if it's not perfect despite having to pay employees and other related expenses. The states can't afford to maintain or manage all of our federal lands in addition to paying the state employees and all other related expenses. When they can't, they get sold. This is random but for any of you that hunt besides fish and participate in the dedicated hunters program with the DNR, I suggest you ask the project leaders perspective and opinion on state vs. federal management of public lands.
Part of my point in bringing this up is to show Bishop and Chaffetz hypocrisy. Every time there is a few thousand dollars worth of oil, gas, or coal somewhere, they're both crying. If there was 50 million or more dollars of oil, gas, or coal somewhere they'd cry so much that they could fill up Utah Lake this year. Beyond the economic losses described in this article, there's evidence that public lands benefit surrounding area economies. Our State government didn't open some of our most popular public lands back in 2012 when the federal government shut down because of their "good hearts". They did it because the surrounding areas literally weren't making any money. I'm tired of people like Chaffetz, Herbert, Bishop,etc. trying to tell me all of these "economic arguments" and then ignoring the economic arguments like these and countless others that I could present you all. Part of the point of posting this article was about looking at the bigger picture. A couple of you have brought up stuff like well that's not much money per person or that you don't care because you don't buy stuff from Patagonia. Those are irrelevant and insignificant points. First off, no the money isn't evenly distributed on a per person basis based on population. Secondly, you could make that per person based on population argument with literally any economic situation; it's frankly stupid. Third, this isn't about if you personally buy Patagonia gear or not...I don't. This is about overall state benefits(in this case loss state economic benefits) and even how the world views Utah. Less people are going to go on vacations/etc. in Utah when they know Utah's Leadership stance on public lands or hear about how lots of our public lands either get sold off or degraded if Chaffetz and Bishop get their way. Fourth, this is also about hypocrisy like I talked about before. I don't want to hear Chaffetz and Bishop "economic reasons" we should do this and that when they ignore the actually more and stronger economic evidence that I can provide them. I challenge some one you who use economic reasons to defend your oppositions for the way public lands are currently managed to quit dismissing or treating economic evidence contrary to what you want to believe as garbage.
Bovineowner -- Glad you're out there and speaking your piece very well....I, too support Chavez and Bishop, and am grateful they are doing their job, in trying to lessen the hold the Feds have on us, especially here in Utah.....I've never bought anything from Patagonia, never had any need for their 'little rich boy' items....so if they go? if they all go? K-marts have left, Shopkos have left, business's come and they go.....something or someone else eventually takes their place.....Salt Lake has had a great run with the Outdoor group....let someone else deal with their cry-baby liberal demands....
I say good riddance! I am so sick of liberal tree huggers taking their ball and running home to momma when they don't get their way! Don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out! I applaud Bishop and Chavez for trying to keep Washington DC Mismanagement away. I know my opinion is very unpopular here and its not meant to start another scuffle. I hope when we all have the chance to get together in the spring, I may be able to show you with your own eyes, how poorly our federal lands are managed.
This is a public forum and fishing lunatic has every right to post to it as long as he follows the rules. If you don't want to see his posts, perhaps you shouldn't open them. This gray haired, sore kneed, but not overweight guy enjoys his perspective on life. Larry
Sorry, but I disagree. The worst thing that could happen is Utah government getting possession of the federal land. It would quickly be sold or given away. Even if they kept it, it wouldn't be maintained. Shucks, they couldn't/wouldn't fix the fish cleaning station at Willard Bays south marina. Been broke for a year and is still broke today. Rob Bishop is behind this movement and Bobble head Bob received 90% of his campaign financing from outside interests primarily oil and gas companies. I wouldn't trust that tub of lard as far as I could throw him. Like my daddy always said, "follow the money". Larry
$50 million potential lose divided by 3 million (roughly) Utah residents...I think I am fine with losing $17.00 in return for keeping a couple million acres of land free for any and all public use. And let's be honest, I was never going to see any of that $50 million anyway.
I was referring to debating anyone on here about politics. I'm still going to post current events going on around the world, especially Utah, including ones about politics. I also meant that I will respond to political posts that I know are blantant lies or incorrect but that I won't start politic debates. Also, this topic is political but I left the political part out of it by not saying party's.
I'm gray haired, sore knee'd and overweight but I'm hoping to live for a long time. .[/quote] Me too, and because of that I think politicains should leave public land alone. In my state they are trying to sell state land to private concerns, once that starts sportsmen and women will be left out in the cold. Chavez will do the same if we don't stand up and say something! It's not a Democrat or Republican thing, it's about where we will hunt , fish and camp.
What happened to " this will be my last post about politic's"( at least for a long time)? I'm gray haired, sore knee'd and overweight but I'm hoping to live for a long time. Hoping it's longer than your "long time".
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